Transcript of Press Conference with Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern, on the Peace Process, Leeds Castle, (18 September 2004)

Transcript of Press Conference with Tony Blair, then British Prime Minister and Bertie Ahern, then Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister), on the Peace Process, Leeds Castle, (18 September 2004)

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

Good afternoon everyone and welcome to yet another stunning setting for Northern Ireland's peace negotiations. Let me tell you what we can tell you.

After three days of intensive discussion, we think we are in the following position. We think we can resolve the issues to do with ending paramilitary activity and putting weapons beyond use. As a matter of urgency, all parties need to conduct consultations on the possible agreement before we can proceed, and subject to a satisfactory outcome of these consultations we can finally, and at long last, resolve the issue of arms in the politics of Northern Ireland, thereby allowing the two governments to implement all the remaining elements of the Joint Declaration agreed last year.

There is, however, not yet comprehensive agreement on how to change the strands 1, 2 and 3 of the Good Friday Agreement without damaging the fundamentals of the fair and inclusive basis of the agreement, although we believe the parties are close. Discussions will continue between the parties, supported by Paul Murphy and Brian Cowan next week, to try to bring this to an early conclusion.

However, we want, as the two governments, to make one thing clear. We believe that what is now on offer is reasonable in its substance and historic in its meaning. We are determined to move ahead. On the one hand there must be the complete end to violence in all its forms; on the other, there must be a genuine, lasting and stable commitment to power sharing. If agreement cannot be reached, when it is clear that it should be reached, we will find a different way to move this process forward.

That is all I want to say, and thank you Bertie once again for giving up so much of your time, and that of your colleagues, to help.

TAIOSEACH: (Bertie Ahern):

I want to thank the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and his team on behalf of all of the Irish Ministers, Brian Cowan and Michael McDool and Tom Kitt and our colleagues for making the arrangements for what has been exactly 34 hours of intensive talks over these three days, and I also with to thank all the parties who patiently and diligently contributed to our discussions. We have made progress on the key issues that have created the deficits of confidence over the past, including paramilitarism, arms decommissioning and policing. As a result of these discussions we have now the real prospect of securing acts of completion that we have been seeking over the last few years, and I know that the parties will need to consult with their respective constituencies before proceeding to take any steps in that regard. Assuming that we do get a positive response to the progress made over the period ahead, both governments will quickly proceed with the conditional commitments, as outlined in the Joint Declaration.

It was not possible, as the Prime Minister said, to secure total agreement on the institutional issues. However, our hope is that it will be possible to close that loop and thereby secure a fully comprehensive agreement providing for the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive. However, quite frankly it is only the parties themselves who can agree to changes to the institutions, they cannot be imposed by the governments. So it is absolutely vital that we do not falter at the last hurdle, and I urge all parties, and join with Prime Minister Blair, for particularly those in positions of power and responsibility to finish the job in the interests of all the people in Northern Ireland.

QUESTION:

Prime Minister and Taoiseach, are you not frustrated that you appear to have the answer to the arms question, yet the issue of accountability appears still to be dogging this process? There was no breakthrough here, was there, in the sense that Stormont is not back immediately. Are you frustrated by this or do you think this was a breakthrough?

TAOISEACH: (Bertie Ahern)

It is not a question of frustration, but I think Ken the institutions were never going to be up next week, arising out of this session, because we know what the terms that everybody put down were, and I think we have made, and perhaps could have made, total progress on all these issues, maybe, maybe not. But I still think what I have said at the outset is there. On the institutional issues the review has been ongoing for the better part of 9 months across the strands. I believe within those strands there was a careful balance from September exactly seven years ago this month, right through that autumn, winter and spring that you Ken, and many people here, remember, and that balance was about power-sharing, it was about a particular structure. Now the governments stand by that structure, but it seems to us, and we discussed this at some length, that we can make arrangements to allow these things to happen, and if there are good ideas to make things more functioning into the future then we can agree those things. But it is not the governments that can agree that, it is the parties that have to agree.

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

You know I have been in this situation so many times with all you guys, and sometimes saying something is absolutely historic and it then turns out not to be, that I would prefer to do it the other way round this time and say there is huge potential in what has happened here, but whether it turns out to be historic, I think the next few days and weeks will tell us the answer to that. One thing I am quite sure of now, however, we can resolve the issue of paramilitary activity and an end to all violence. It is true there is a negotiation now over the institutional mechanisms for devolution to work in Northern Ireland. I cannot believe myself that if people really want to find a way through that, they won't find a way through. The big issue was always if there was a total end to violence, would everyone share power with each other. Now that question in principle is now answered in the same way by every party we deal with. The issue of ending the violence I think as a result of what we have discussed and the outline of what we have got here, I think that can be done. I can't believe myself that this set of institutional issues is going then to scupper what otherwise I think would be a very good deal, but let's wait and see.

QUESTION:

Picking up on that, how urgent is the task facing the politicians when they resume, I think it is going to be on Tuesday at Stormont, on these institutional issues. Is there a fear that what you have gained on paramilitarism could unravel if they don't come up with a quick deal?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

I think that all these things depend on confidence and therefore the longer you go without everything brought together, the greater the danger is that confidence ebbs away. On the other hand, we should be very clear about this, I think there is a measure of agreement on many of these institutional questions. There is one issue, if I can express it to you quite frankly, and it is this, that in making any changes to the Good Friday Agreement, the Belfast Agreement, it is important that nothing upsets the basic and fundamental equilibrium of what was established there. Now provided you can find a way to accommodate people's concerns without doing that, then we may be able to find a way forward. But I just want to make one thing absolutely clear to you. There is nothing more for us to do in a long negotiation like this any more. We have been through absolutely everything we need to go through and we are determined now to move this thing forward. So the governments intend, provided we get a satisfactory response, to start the thing moving and then it is for people to decide whether they want to come in behind that or not.

QUESTION:

... do you think that anything short of wrecking the architecture of the Good Friday Agreement will satisfy that party? You have had your chance to listen to these people.

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

Well I very much hope they are not in that position, but these are questions that you need to put to them about this, but I think there are two issues in relation to this, the first is the basic issue of principle, if there is an end to paramilitary activity will they go in and share power with Sinn Fein? They say the answer to that is yes, if there is an end to paramilitary activity. And the second issue is can you ensure that whatever institutional structures you put in place, there is not a situation where you return to what I think sometimes is referred to majoritarianism. I think it is important that any institutional structure we agree holds very firm to the basic fairness and equilibrium set out in the Good Friday Agreement. Now you can have changes about how things work, and greater systems of accountability, but they must not disturb that basic equilibrium.

QUESTION:

... on that principle, because you are throwing it back into the parties' laps. You know the position of the Democratic Unionist Party. Can you remain agnostic on this question since you are the guardians or custodians of the Good Friday Agreement?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

Well we are not agnostic. What we are saying is, as the Taoiseach has just said to you, that if there is a way forward it has got to be agreed within the parties, we can't impose it on people. We can't say to them that is what you have got to do.

TAOISEACH: (Bertie Ahern)

I think we made it absolutely clear in the discussions, Eamon, so to answer your question that the fundamentals of the Agreement on power-sharing remain. The changes on accountability to make things function may be better, are issues for the parties to decide, but the balance struck in 1998 on the fundamentals agreement on power-sharing, remain and will remain unchanged.

QUESTION:

Does that mean that there will be another referendum on the Good Friday Agreement, because you will not change what the Prime Minister described as the equilibrium of the agreement? And secondly, when you stood together in Sedgefield last week you told us that this was the last chance, this was the end of the line. Now you are telling us that the parties are going to go away and they are going to try and negotiate a deal on the Assembly issues. It isn't the end of the line, is it?

TAIOSEACH: (Bertie Ahern)

Well as the Prime Minister has just stated, as far as our negotiating and putting forward our positions, that is the end of the line, our proposals are quite clear, they are understood. It is reasonable for people to talk to their executives, to talk to colleagues, to talk to the greater party about those positions, but there is no doubt where we stand, the two governments, so from that point of view I think the discussion is finished. On the other point, any suggestions or any aspects of the Good Friday Agreement that we put forward, and as you know I put forward some suggestions on this, they were Good Friday compliant, constitutionally compliant, so there is no need for constitutional change on any of those aspects.

QUESTION:

Mr Blair, I am sure you have had better weeks in politics. Given the hunting demonstration on Wednesday, your failure to broker a deal here today, is there now a danger that your power and influence as Prime Minister is starting to wane?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

That's a very nice question, isn't it? I think we should wait and see whether we have failed to make any breakthrough here. On the hunting question, can I come back to that at the end, we will take the Northern Ireland questions first.

QUESTION:

Would you be prepared, if the various attempts at coming back to you fails, to put proposals, based on what you have learned today, directly to the Northern Ireland Assembly, to the parliament and to the people?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

I don't think there is any point at the moment in speculating as to how we take this forward. The one thing we are absolutely sure about, and let me say the talks incidentally have been very constructive with everyone, there is no-one who hasn't played their part in these talks extremely constructively. All we are saying is, as we said some time ago, that for us this is the end of the detailed negotiation, we are not coming back in and doing another great detailed negotiation because everyone knows where we stand on the issues and the parties know that very well. If we can't find agreement, and I hope we can, I hope we can, and I don't believe I am being foolishly optimistic in saying that I believe it is possible to do that, but if we can't we are going to have to find another way forward. What we can't do is have the whole thing held up forever.

QUESTION:

How long are you prepared to wait for the parties to reach agreement?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

I think we will know pretty soon. I am not going to put some arbitrary time on it, but I think we will know pretty soon if people are serious.

QUESTION:

Inaudible.

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

Certainly this side of Christmas. We would know, I would say, well before then, but I think we might even know sooner than that. I think it will be clear quite soon as to whether people are serious or not. And if they are not, as I say, we are going to have to sit down and work out a different way forward.

QUESTION:

You must be quite satisfied that you have got a commitment from the IRA that they are going to disarm and decommission. What is the strength of that that has convinced you that they are going to do that?

TAOISEACH: (Bertie Ahern)

I think we have worked on all of the issues that we put down for a base and agenda at Lancaster House, and I think on all of those aspects what we are saying is we believe that agreement can be reached, we are not saying agreement has been reached, because if one aspect isn't then the other part obviously hangs it, that has always been the basis that we have worked for seven years. But we believe, and I think we can comfortably believe, that if it was a comprehensive agreement and that people agree totally to the offers we put forward, then we could deliver on it all. But that is for others to have a say in.

QUESTION:

What do you say to the argument that the only way to get Iain Paisley and the DUP into a power-sharing administration, is to get everybody else outside the door?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair>

I would say that that is not perhaps the most constructive and diplomatic way to approach a negotiation, that is what I would say. Look, you will have a chance to ask the DUP questions in a moment and I think it is best that they speak for themselves, rather than us speaking for them. But, well I am only going to repeat myself, I think it is perfectly possible to find a way forward. I think we have basically resolved the contours of the paramilitary question, but we have still got to make sure that whatever changes are made to the institutional mechanisms, as I say that they are acceptable to all the parties and that is a negotiation that has got to take place. But we wouldn't have been here at all today if we thought that any party in relation to these discussions was completely unconstructive about it, there would be no point in us coming.

TAOISEACH: (Bertie Ahern):

The only point, Sammy, is that the fundamentals of the agreement are not open to debate, so I think for all parties, and I don't be picking out any parties, for all parties everyone has to understand what the basis of going forward is. Northern Ireland, not because I want it to be so, but it is a unique place, so the structure that was put into the 1998 Act from the Good Friday Agreement and from the multi-party discussions is perhaps complex, but that is the way it is, and it is a formula so that people would share power in the difficult circumstances of Northern Ireland, and that is the way it is going to have to be. So you can talk about perhaps efficiencies, and collectivity and collective responsibility, all of those issues, but the fundamentals of power-sharing are what they are and they are not changing, and I think everybody understands that.

QUESTION:

Are you happy that you have been told that the IRA are going to go away once and for all, that acts of completion are going to happen? And are you going to implement the Joint Declaration in the next couple of weeks?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

Well we will implement the Joint Declaration if we get satisfactory responses, and I hope we will but we will have to wait and see on that. As I say, I am not going to overplay that until it actually happens. If I can just pick up on something the Taoiseach said the other moment, I think this is very important about this whole institutional business, there is absolutely no reason why you can't have changes to the institutional mechanisms that improve efficiency, collective responsibility, systems of accountability, but what you can't do is have a situation where parties feel that the essence of the deal if you like, never mind the Good Friday Agreement but the whole deal, the essence of the deal, in other words peaceful means exclusively, power-sharing is disturbed. That is the point. In other words any institutional change that you agree must not disturb the essence of that, that those who have been engaged in paramilitary activity cease it completely, but on that basis everyone agrees to share power on a fair basis. That is the thing that can't be disturbed, and everything else of course the parties can agree to.

QUESTION:

Prime Minister, given the time and investment you and your counterparts have put into setting the scene here, now given the lack of a clear cut deal, how much of a blow is this to you personally?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

I never feel like that about these negotiations in respect of the Northern Ireland peace process, and if I did I would have become depressed a long time ago about it because we have been through so many of the negotiations. But you know as someone was saying to me earlier, I know there is a stage in the press conference where you are going to say we must never forget how much has been achieved in Northern Ireland - we have now reached that moment, but we shouldn't forget how much has been achieved. And I hope today what we are doing is actually underplaying what is significant, rather than overstating what turns out not to be, but that is not a matter for him and me any more, that is a matter for everybody else. And my desire, and this will be judged in respect of me and the Taoiseach, but more importantly the people in Northern Ireland, is can you get the institutions back up and running on a stable and enduring basis, on the basis that everyone knows it is only democratic and peaceful means that you can use in pursuing your political objectives. Now if we get that we have done well. Whether we will or not, you will have to wait for a little bit.

QUESTION:

... on policing and justice, devolution of those important key matters, also getting Sinn Fein to sign up to policing finally. And the third question, the Pat Finucan inquiry, do you think that can now go ahead?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

In respect of the first, I think there is progress on that too, I believe we could reach agreement on those issues. I think there is definitely agreement in principle to devolution of justice and policing, I think there can be agreement on a process then to determine how that devolution takes place, and I think people accept that if you can get an agreement on what should be devolved, and the necessary community confidence is there, then do it as soon as possible. Now when that can be depends obviously on that community confidence being there, but I think all parties accept that basically. And in respect of Finucan, well we will abide by the commitments that we have set out, and we may be able to say a bit about that in the days to come.

QUESTION:

Is it fair to assume that the logic of what you are saying is that there is already an agreement on weapons, there is no agreement on institutional change, if there is no agreement you are going to look for other options, the only option possible is to devise a reform of the legislation about shared government that actually excludes the DUP from sharing the government. Is that the logic that one has to assume from this?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

Well up until the very last bit of that, I thought that was an admirably concise summary of what we are saying. I think as to how we would find a way forward, if we can't reach agreement, as I say we have gone through the last of these detailed negotiations, not because we can't be bothered to go through another, we would go through several if we had to, but the fact is there isn't anything more that we can do on that. The rest of it is for the parties to try and work out these last bits of the institutional stuff. If that fails then we will have to search for a new way forward, definitely, because this thing can't be held up forever, but it is probably not helpful to speculate on exactly how at this point in time. But again obviously the basis of it is still those two principles - peace on one hand; power-sharing on the other.

QUESTION:

Notwithstanding the fact that you have accomplished what people hitherto thought was politically impossible in brokering talks between Sinn Fein and the DUP, isn't the political reality that Plan B is really Plan A, you just have to keep coming back to it?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

Unravel that one for me at the end?

QUESTION:

The basics, Plan B is Plan A, there really isn't a Plan B, you will just have to keep coming back to this in various guises and different forms, but without you two as the ring leaders or the ring masters?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

I am not sure about that. I don't think we should shut our minds to anything. If we decide that people are being completely unreasonable in stopping the thing moving forward, because it is our duty in the end to try and find a way forward for people in Northern Ireland, actually for people in the whole island of Ireland. So no. But I think that the underlying reality has always been in this situation that the only way you can be sure you are going to get an enduring stable peace in Northern Ireland is if it is on an inclusive basis. That is a statement of the obvious. But as to what we would do if we really believe it is impossible to do that, I don't know, we just have to think of another way.

QUESTION:

It has been reported that the two of you have seen a statement from the IRA. Is that correct? Or what have you had from Republicans that is so different to what we have seen in the past?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

The answer is no, we have not had a statement from the IRA, but I think that Republicans know exactly what is required if they are to move this process forward and we will have to wait and see what responses we get.

QUESTION:

... the IRA seem to be prepared to give up their existence to the DUP, whereas they weren't prepared to do that for the pro-agreement parties.

TAIOSEACH: (Bertie Ahern)

I think that the stage that we are at, and it is inevitable in any stage of negotiations that things move on, and for the last two years we have identified in the acts of completion, and all of the areas in the acts of completion, at Lancaster House in the latest one, we said we wanted to deal with the arms issue, we wanted to deal with paramilitaries in all its forms, we said we want to deal with policing and justice, and we said to do all of that we needed stable and enduring institutions. Now I think we are making progress on all of those issues. If we could make progress a bit quicker on all of those issues, I think we would be here today with it signed up. But I accept that people have to check back, they have to consult, I also understand that some people are coming to this newer than others and perhaps things are more difficult, but everybody knows where we are at, and I quite frankly don't think this is going to change. Frank's earlier question, I don't think it is a question of Plan B or Plan C, the plan is clear, everybody is signed into it. Maybe everybody isn't signed into it fully, and the quicker they do that we get on with it. So I think these things move on over a period, it is not somebody didn't do it for somebody else.

QUESTION:

On the subject of Iraq, British citizen Ken Bigley has now been taken hostage and it has been suggested by his captors that they would spare his life and that of the other people they have taken if women were released from Abu Ghraib prison. I wonder what your response is to that. And more widely, given Kofi Annan's comments this week, given the violence and loss of life in Iraq, whether you feel it was a mistake to override the advice which we see in the papers today you were given by David Manning and Jack Straw on there not being a prepared plan for handling Iraq after a war had been won?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

First of all on the hostage that has been taken, we are monitoring the situation very closely, we are doing everything that we can, but I don't want to say anything more about it at this stage. I think it is best to leave that to those that are handling this in the detail of it, for the sake of the hostage. In respect of the other thing, actually having read in the papers that apparently I was warned of the chaos that was going to ensue in Iraq, I actually got the Minute that Jack sent me. It didn't do anything of the sort, if I may say. What it warned of was this, it said that it was very important that we don't replace one dictator - Saddam Hussein - with another dictator. I totally agree with that, which is precisely why we went down the route of getting a UN blessed process to guide Iraq towards democracy. And what is happening now in Iraq, whatever people think about the original decision to go to war in Iraq, what is happening today in Iraq is absolutely clear, it is the very crucible of the fight against terrorism, against groups that are prepared to kill or take hostages, or do whatever they possibly can, in order to prevent Iraq becoming a stable country because they know if Iraq does stabilise and become a stable democratic country, that is a huge blow to the whole movement of international terrorism. And so the idea that we did not have a plan for afterwards is simply not correct. We did, and indeed we have unfolded that plan, but there are people in Iraq, outsiders as well as former regime elements, who are determined to stop us, and stop us precisely because they know what victory in Iraq would mean, and that is why it is all the more important that we carry on until we win it, and we will.

On the hunting question, because obviously since we have been in this castle doing the Northern Ireland peace process negotiations I have had the chance to comment on the events of the last few days. Let me just say two things, first on the issue of secrity, and I just wanted to say this, that of course we have obviously got to look very carefully at the security of the House of Commons in the light of what happened, and no doubt there will be recommendations made and acted upon, but I do just want to say this, I think it is very, very important that we do not end up in a situation where MPs aren't able to meet their constituents, where we don't have an interaction with the people, where people can't come and legitimately, lawfully protest. I think that is all part of our democracy and I think of course there are issues of security we have to address, but we shouldn't go over the top about it and we should keep some calm reflection as part of the consideration. And in respect of hunting, look let me just explain. This is seven years we have been trying to resolve this issue. We have had four different legislative Bills, and the truth is there are very, very strong feelings on either side of the argument, by those people who hunt that it is not just a sport but integral to their way of life, and by those who are opposed to hunting that it is unnecessarily cruel. Last year the Minister put forward what I think was then, and actually remains, a perfectly sensible compromise, which is to make sure that we deal with the issue through a system of licensing which takes account of the need to prevent unnecessary cruelty. For various reasons that was blocked, rejected in the House of Commons, blocked in the House of Lords. There it is. We have still got different stages of legislation to go through in parliament, but I think it is very, very important for people to realise we have to resolve this, we have said that we will, it is a manifesto commitment that we will, but it requires a little bit of give and take to do so.

QUESTION:

Are you personally glad hunting is going to be banned?

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

I have always taken the view that I have taken over several years and voted accordingly. But I also think, and that is the reason I got Alun Michael to start this process last year, that if you can find a sensible compromise, you should find a sensible compromise. Now we spent six months on a consultation and then produced a compromise, which the government backed, and I backed. Unfortunately we were not able to secure agreement on it.

QUESTION:

Inaudible.

PRIME MINISTER: (Tony Blair)

The MPs in the end have got a free vote on this, they make up their minds on it. My job is simply to say that we promised that we will resolve it, we should resolve it, but when people say, as they do, and in the past few days there have been some comments to this effect, that no-one has ever sought a sensible compromise, we sought precisely such a sensible compromise. Unfortunately it was rejected in the Commons and rejected in the Lords as well. So there we are, we will have to find a way through. Thank you all very, very much.

TAOISEACH: (Bertie Ahern)

I would just thank the Prime Minister, I want to thank Richard Reeves as well, our colleagues from the United States, Paul Murphy and my own Attorney General and everybody for three splendid days at Leeds Castle.