Transcript of Press Conference with Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern, Belfast, 8 December 2004

Transcript of Press Conference with Tony Blair, then British Prime Minister, and Bertie Ahern, then Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister), at the Waterfront Hall, Belfast, 8 December 2004

Prime Minister - Tony Blair:

Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to the press conference. If we might, we would like to explain for you a little bit of detail, exactly the point at which we have reached, the agreements that we have got, the things that are still to do. I think if I had to summarise it I would say that what is being achieved is remarkable, but not yet complete.

I say it is remarkable for this reason, we all remember the agonising negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement, the Belfast Agreement in April 1998, we then all remember too the difficulties that we ran into, the problems. And that led me to make a speech here in Belfast in October 2002 where I focused on what were the outstanding questions and I said really two things, first of all that we had to be clear that the only basis upon which people could participate in Government was on the basis of exclusively peaceful and democratic means and that that meant in particular a complete end to all paramilitary activity. And those statements that I made in the course of that speech sometimes referred to, I think, as the 'Blair Necessities', by various parties but those were set out there in detail. What we in effect accepted was that up to this point we had had commitments, we had had people believing that some how those commitments hadn't been quite fulfilled on either side but I was saying in October 2002 we have to be absolutely clear, from now on there was no ambiguity, no compromise on this, paramilitary activity had to end and end completely.

And I then went on to say and this was the second point, that if that occurred then there had to be the sharing of power, so that we had a genuine cross-community basis upon which devolved Government in Northern Ireland could work.

There was then a whole series of further negotiations and then at Lancaster House in June of this year, we set aside 4 areas that we had to try and resolve. Those areas were indeed the end to paramilitary activity, the issue of decommissioning over which again all of you here will be well familiar with the stops and starts we had in relation to that. We then had to recognise as a result of the changed electoral situation that we were going to have to amend aspects of the Belfast Agreement in order to provide a basis for powersharing between the DUP and Sinn Fein and then of course there was the whole issue to do with policing which I think sometimes it didn't have its full significance understood. The issue of policing is immensely important because if people from all parts of the community are part of policing in Northern Ireland then of course it is wholly inconsistent with that to have paramilitary activity.

Now where have we got to then today? The commitments and agreement that we have got are the following. First of all we have the commitment by the IRA to end paramilitarism and to end it definitively. The documents that we will put out today are the documents that we have effectively agreed with all parties in the course of this negotiation and in relation to the commitment to end paramilitarism. I would draw your attention to several things, the fact that for the first time it has stated very clearly that the causes of conflict are over, when the agreement that we have reached is implemented. That there has to be a complete and definitive end to all paramilitary activity and that in those circumstances and on the basis of agreement the IRA would move into a new and peaceful mode. That is the first thing, which I think is important.

Secondly we have an agreement that decommissioning should be done and indeed should be completed by this Christmas. In other words within the next few weeks. I think those of you who have studied our progress in this issue over the past few years will realise what an immense leap that is from where we have been. And you will see in the elements of the statement that would be put out by the International Commission on Decommissioning that we have covered there the elements that would be necessary including independent observers to witness this decommissioning. But in the course of that what we have done is set out a process for all of the decommissioning, not to be begun, not to be continued, but to be completed by this Christmas.

Then there is also an agreement about the period between the end of decommissioning, in other words you complete decommissioning by Christmas, and then we have set out a period then between the end of decommissioning and the setting up of the Executive which we stipulated would be in March with arrangements of and discussion and arrangements in some shadow form to take these processes forward in that in-between time. In other words you have an agreement to end the decommissioning by Christmas, you have an agreement to set up the Executive in March and then in the intervening period of time you have an agreement about how you would deal with things in that intervening period. Then we actually have the agreement that there should be indeed a powersharing Executive and in addition to that we have reached agreement on the changes to Strands 1-3 of the Belfast Agreement which would allow that powersharing Executive in accordance with the fundamentals of the Belfast Agreement but nonetheless, amended to take account of the changed electoral situation which would have enabled us to have that power sharing Executive in the way I have described.

In addition to that we have agreement on how we take forward the policing issue, in particular an agreement that we sort out the modalities of how that would happen. An agreement that at the time of the enactment of legislation to devolve that to Northern Ireland that would be the joining to the policing, and to the policing arrangements of Sinn Fein. So there's an agreement in other words to sort out an end to paramilitarism, an agreement to complete decommissioning by Christmas, an agreement that there should be power sharing, an agreement on the basis of that power sharing, and an agreement in respect of policing. Those of you who studied this over the years will realise that to have agreed all those matters is a very, very considerable progress, but there is one issue which I think has been in the press extensively in the past few days and that is the transparency of the decommissioning process. Whether it's an agreement on independent observers, an agreement on the (unclear) this should be done the decommissioning in accordance with the ways of the International Commission on Decommissioning wants, but the belief that, on the unionist side, that it is necessary that the decommissioning be photographed, and the photographs published, has not been agreed to.

Now the two Governments have submitted a compromise, you'll see it set out in the decommissioning part of this paper which would have allowed us to take the photographs at the time of decommissioning, to publish them at the time the Executive is set up, and we believe that would have been a workable compromise. But there we have not, at the present at any rate, found agreement. So that is, forgive me for setting it out in a little bit of detail, but I think that it's important, and we've actually got the document that you can take away to study, and the people of Northern Ireland can study which sets out exactly what was agreed. And but for this particular part indeed it has been agreed.

I just want to say a couple of other things therefore. The first is that sometimes I read about people in Northern Ireland feeling cynical about the political process here, actually we only have to be here, we only have to look around Belfast today to see the change and progress that's been made in Northern Ireland, and I don't think people should be cynical about their politicians here in Northern Ireland trying to deal with these issues in a very, very difficult way. I think it's thanks to political courage shown by the UUP and the SDLP in particular that we managed to get the Good Friday Agreement, the Belfast Agreement, and Sinn Fein too of course. It is thanks to a lot of political courage on the part of the DUP, who after years of believing they had to say no, I believe are finally prepared to say yes. It's been very hard and very difficult for republicans to travel the road that they have travelled and I pay tribute to the leadership of Sinn Fein in helping them do that. And we reach a point now therefore where, just trying to think how I could describe it to you, and many people, many of the press here looking round the room have been at these press conferences throughout all the years that the Taoiseach and myself have, and incidentally I (unclear) would pay tribute to the Taoiseach and the tremendous commitment that he has given to this process and to the officials on both sides that have done that too. I was trying to think how I would describe it to you and it's a bit like if you engage in a mountain climb, and you're a weary traveller, and you think you've reached the peak, and just when you think you've reached the peak you see you've got another mound still to go, and that's how I feel standing here today.

On the other hand I look back and see the vast expanse of territory we have covered and I know that the extra bit we've got to go which would have looked absolutely unattainable a few months back, is indeed attainable. So what do we have to do? We will carry on working to get this last part of the way, this last hill climbed. The reason we come here today and we're publishing these documents, is we also want people in Northern Ireland and indeed on the whole of the island of Ireland to discuss and debate this, to see how far we have come, and in a sense to help by creating the circumstances of support for this process to help the political parties and those associated with political parties to get the last bit of the way.

Having come this far and having done this much I don't, I may be weary of the travel, but I'm not downhearted, I think that there is an inevitability about this process that is now locked in. I can't see this process now going backwards, but I do know that it's going to require extra effort to finish the journey. So that's what we will try to do, and as I say by publishing this today, I know it's an unusual thing to do, but I think it's only fair for people in Northern Ireland, and indeed in the Republic too, that people are able to discuss it and debate it, and that the political leaders and ourselves answer questions upon it because this is a transformed landscape in which we operate today, but it won't be properly transformed until we have the devolved institutions back up and working again, and until we have the situation everyone now wants to see which is people sitting down from whatever part of the community they come from in peace and tolerance with each other. We will carry on working to that end. Sorry for taking your time and explaining all the various parts of this.

Taoiseach - Bertie Ahern:

Thank you very much, and again to thank Prime Minister Blair and his colleagues for the amount of effort and commitment put into this phase that brings us here today, and we've come here this afternoon with real purpose, we could have issued our proposals without travelling to Belfast, but I think we've come here because we feel obliged to give full expression and to lend full weight and political support for these proposals which we have worked on throughout the whole of 2004.

And it's not just as the Prime Minister said at one of those many press conferences that we've had in Hillsborough and elsewhere that the Prime Minister and I have hosted over the years. I think today is truly different, I don't think it, I know it. We want people everywhere to understand this, because we'd obviously wished to be able to present the proposals in the context of full agreement before we came here, that's not possible. We're not quite at that point of total success, but our work must therefore continue to secure agreement and closure on what by any standard is a hugely impressive, indeed a landmark package. Anyone who has followed this process since September 1997, since the multi-party agreement started, would realise that when they study the document. If they do not, then they have not been following the process.

The comprehensive proposals that we are publishing today are those from, I think that both parties have been considering over the last number of weeks, and there are of course other matters of concern to individual parties that are being dealt with separately and by respective Governments. They cover the key issues that must be resolved to finally and definitively assure peace and political stability in Northern Ireland, which is our efforts to do that.

And the Good Friday Agreement made a real difference to the politics of this island and to the lives of all its people, and today's comprehensive proposals will bring closure to all the issues left incomplete from that time, and there are many issues which were not or could not be resolved at that time as we recall. And we believe at this point, after many months of negotiation our efforts will benefit from wider public appraisal and that is why we're anxious and are publishing our proposals.

Detail is important, ladies and gentlemen, but the wider dimension is vital and must be fully appreciated. But specifically we have in prospect, and just reiterating what the Prime Minister stated, ending paramilitary activity, no one anywhere on this island should turn their back on the prospect of achieving such an outcome. Completing the process of IRA arms decommissioning in a rapid timescale which the Prime Minister has given you. The early realisation of this part of the proposals will remove an issue that has come to dominate and impede the prospects of political progress for over a decade now. Securing a basis for the full operation of the institutions of the Agreement on an inclusive basis which many thought were impossible. The prospect of everyone going forward together on the basis of the Good Friday Agreement will contribute hugely to certainty, and stability, improving the accountability and effectiveness of these institutions, but also staying within the fundamentals of the Agreement which has been a big task, and this is an important initiative from which the Agreement will greatly benefit in our view. Achieving the support of the republican community for the new policing arrangements, this is an enormously significant and historic prospect which will bring assurance and benefit throughout Northern Ireland for the future, and getting ahead with many other important commitments that have been stalled because of the absence of the overall agreements. And these proposals should of course also lead and be read in conjunction with the Government's Joint Declaration of May 2003 which outlines in considerable detail many issues that must be separately addressed in the context of overall closure, including moving ahead rapidly with reducing military presence. And in the context of assured peace, I think everyone would welcome Northern Ireland being progressively normalised in every respect, and we made it clear that the Irish Government will play its part in addressing those areas, few in number that are relevant to us in this context. A comprehensive deal is a comprehensive deal, it means all issues being fully addressed by everyone, otherwise it's a piecemeal deal, and that means major issues being left unaddressed, we would never have made the progress that we have over these years, if we followed such an approach, and for everything to work in the context of overall agreement each of us, Governments and parties, must fulfil their obligations, some of which taken in isolation present the most profound difficulties. I'm satisfied that the combined impact of these and other changes would fully realise the vision of a new beginning promised by the Agreement.

And what is even more impressive is that we've largely secured agreement on this comprehensive and ambitious package that we outlined today, compared to where we were even a year ago, at Christmas last year, the comprehensive agreement now on the table represents a dramatic surge towards final closure, and there is no doubt about that.

In the aftermath of the Assembly Elections many people thought politics in Northern Ireland has been hopelessly polarised with little prospect of accommodation between the two major parties, but this is far from the case as the Prime Minister said. Sinn Fein and the Democratic Unionist Party have sought to constructively face up to the responsibilities placed upon them by their enhanced leadership mandates and I acknowledge the work that they've done throughout this year. And while the form and nature of engagement over the past year was slow and at times frustrating the fact of the matter is that we're now on the brink of an accommodation that would have been regarded as impossible not that long ago. And while the focus inevitably has been on and avoidably has been on the larger parties, I wish to pay tribute from both of us to the commitment of all of the other parties who've worked with us, to the SDLP, the UUP, the Alliance and the PUP for the work that they done in the Review and elsewhere to bring us to this point. The earlier risk taking for those in leadership positions in 1998 and afterwards greatly contributed to the opportunity we have today to forge an irreversible accommodation between unionism and nationalism and in the context of the real opportunity that now presents itself, it's simply not acceptable that we should fall short.

I recall very well that a core recommendation of the Mitchell Principles on decommissioning in January of 1996 was that the process should, and I quote 'suggest neither victory nor defeat' and that the modalities of decommissioning should not require any party to be seen to surrender and the wise counsel of Senator Mitchell remains equally valid today. It should be a guide to us all at this time and of course on the other side the forms of transparency that are proposed in the Governments' proposals as recalled by the Prime Minister had nothing to do with surrender or humiliation. Certainty and clarity are two way streets and let us remember that. They apply equally to partnership politics as they did do the process of arms decommissioning and as we maintain our efforts on this initiative, and we will, everyone needs to play their part in creating a climate that is conducive to getting matters over the line. We ask people to reflect on the package that both Governments have tabled today. We need everyone's support to fully secure this comprehensive agreement and I agree entirely with what the Prime Minister said in regard to that.

After two years of exhaustive efforts to forge a comprehensive agreement, neither I nor the Prime Minister is willing to settle for anything less than the people of Northern Ireland deserve. Many, many people on this island have lost loved ones in circumstances that never can be justified and what's always motivated us is to try to make sure that that does not ever happen again. And our understandable pain and hurt was made manifest in the South over recent days in regards to the question of the early release of those who were convicted in the case of the murder of Garda Jerry McCabe and the shooting of Garda Dan O'Sullivan. But nothing ladies and gentleman can console families of the loss and injustice that they suffered over the years from any of the people who suffered and there are so, so many. So I'm truly sorry for all these good people and both the Prime Minister and I have met them from all quarters of society, north and south, from all sections of the community. These are good innocent families and the anguish and suffering that they've had to endure we've tried to deal with to bring solutions and conclusions. So I hope that the full knowledge of the extent of this comprehensive agreement will help clarify the context in which we've been working. I want to thank you Prime Minister because I consider myself busy but 2004 for you both in Northern Ireland, in all of your jurisdictions elsewhere in the world and the commitments that you have as being leader of a very, very large country, we understand. We thank Paul, we thank his fellow Ministers and I thank Dermot and Michael but this started for us, there was a meeting just after Christmas last year with Dr Paisley in the Irish Embassy and I know it doesn't finish here in the Waterfront in Belfast but I would like to see it finished before Christmas and I still believe that's possible.

Question:

I am a little confused about the status of this document. Were all these Annexes written by the parties concerned and do you regard them as being bound into them with the exception of the photographic matter and on that, on Annex D, Section 5 from the IICD or can I take it that you both believe that it is important that there should be a photographic record of decommissioning and that it should be published and that at some point in the process you thought the other parties had agreed to that?

Tony Blair:

First of all, obviously we negotiated this on the basis of the discussions that we have had with the parties and the parties, DUP, Sinn Fein agreed. In respect of the issue to do with photographs that is the outstanding issue on the transparency of decommissioning. What we have done is we have tried to call this as a compromise ourselves, in the end it is about building confidence on both sides, building confidence on one side there is going to be powersharing, on the other side the paramilitary battle really is over. And so we called it on the basis that we would have photographs but they would not be published until people actually went into the powersharing Executive. It is not possible to get agreement at this stage on that, that is the outstanding issue. As far as we are concerned everything else is agreed.

Bertie Ahern:

It is what we expected would have come out in the statements, if they had been concluded, obviously it is not agreed with the people in all cases, but it is what we would have expected, perhaps others would have changed it but it was what our litmus test was, we expected that.

Question:

Can I seek clarification and the briefings we got before your arrival here were that you and the Taoiseach were coming here to elucidate and to explain to the people of Northern Ireland what precisely had been going on behind the scenes. So I beg you to listen to me and to try and elucidate as a response to the questions I put to you. If the IRA, if they did say that they had instructed what they call volunteers to desist or to cease engaging in any activity which would damage this package, and secondly if the IRA pledged to verifiably put all arms beyond use, is the war over in your world? Yes or no?

Tony Blair:

My sense of this is yes, the arms struggle ends if that is the case. But in order to have the confidence that actually it is going to happen then you have to decide a means of decommissioning that builds that confidence.

Question:

If you come to Annex D, Paragraph 5, and this is where the confusion arises, in addition the IRA representative has told us, that the IRA will have photographs of the weapons and material involved taken by the IICD in the presence of the independent observers, these photographs will be shown by the IICD. Now what I want to know is, is that similar to the message which allegedly came from Martin McGuinness in February all those years ago to the British Government, or did an IRA representative actually tell John de Chastelain or tell somebody through some medium tell you through some other medium, that they would allow photographs and if they did say that have the reneged?

Tony Blair:

No, no I am not saying they have reneged at all. The issue of the photographs has not been agreed. Everything else has been agreed. Now obviously what we put in this document is what we put to the parties finally as our view as to how to call this. I believe all the other modalities of decommissioning could be agreed. But this is the outstanding question, and it is to do with confidence on the one side and to do on the other side with the desire and the thought by people that they should not participate in anything that they regard as humiliating, that is the issue that is there. So what we have done in these documents is, these are the documents we have been discussing and have shown to the parties. The parties in essence can agree these documents, that this part of it is not agreed. Now this part of it is not agreed, the IRA cannot commit themselves to that. I am not saying they have reneged on an earlier agreement that they would do this. I am not saying that at all, but this is what we hoped we could get agreement to.

Bertie Ahern:

I don't think we should seek to have confusion in it so I want to be very, very clear. I presumed just before you asked your question you listened to what I said to Adam. What I said to Adam was that this was the statement we expected. There are issues, the Prime Minister has made it very clear the issue was not agreed, the photographs, but the issues that would have clearly been agreed, the draft statement would commit the IRA to support a comprehensive agreement, (1), to move into a new mode conducive to a peaceful society (2), to give instructions to its members not to engage in any activity that might endanger new agreements (3) and to complete the process of putting arms beyond use by the end of this month (4), by any measure all four of those, we have said the one that wasn't agreed and it wasn't agreed there was no breaking of faith, it wasn't agreed. But all of the others were ones that would have been which were compelling and a definitive statements, so they, it is quite clear what was agreed and what wasn't.

Question:

Prime Minister and Taoiseach, forgive me for dwelling on that one word "expected", but it seems to me rather important. Your document says that you expected the IRA to agree to photographs, and agree to them to be published. Do you mean that wasn't just a hope, wasn't just a guess, it wasn't just what you wished to happen, it's what you expected would happen on the basis of the conversation you'd had with republicans?

Tony Blair:

No, I think it's very important we don't get into, there's no indication of bad faith here that's not the issue. It's important you realise that. We're not saying people came to agreement then reneged on the agreement, just get that out, otherwise we'll complicate an already difficult situation. What we are saying is on the basis of the discussions we had, right, everything could be agreed, but this issue to deal with the transparency of the decommissioning. Now as it's happened because we've not been able to agree that then you haven't got the whole thing agreed.

Question:

These words (unclear) don't appear from nowhere, they're usually in because that's what you've been led to believe is a doable deal...

Tony Blair:

No, it's...

Question:

It looks to us as though he put forward a deal you expected, in the Taoiseach's words...

Tony Blair:

You've got to be careful of this because otherwise you will lead to a misunderstanding. No, what we have done in this document is call it on the basis what we think would have been a reasonable way through this. We think it would have been a reasonable compromise to have done it in the way that we have described, to have said, you take the photographs, but you don't actually publish them until you go into the Executive. Now, everything that we've done, of course it's a process of negotiation, you're back to and fro with people and in the end we have to call it, and as I think we said the last time we gave a press conference in the end we've got to do, you know, tic-tacing between everyone, then we come to it, and then we say well that's what we think. Obviously you want to pitch it at the point you think you can get agreement. Now it's not that someone mislead us about this, we're not saying that, don't misunderstand me at all, but that's what we think would have been a reasonable way through this. The reason we decided to take the unusual step of publishing it all is that you can see how much actually has been agreed. So agreed was decommissioning by Christmas, agreed was making sure that you have independent observers to it, agreed was an end to paramilitary activity, agreed was the power sharing, agreed was the setting up of the Executive, agreed was all the changes that you need for the DUP to be able to sit in the Executive with Sinn Fein. What's not agreed is the issue of transparency which is important of course, but it's not that we have put this forward on the basis someone said to us, we'll do this, and then went back on it. That wouldn't be fair to those people who have negotiated. I just want to make this clear. I paid tribute to parties earlier, I should pay tribute also is the Taoiseach, the Alliance, the PUP, the Women's Coalition, and others who have also paid a tremendous part in this, but I think that everybody who we've negotiated with over the past few months has negotiated absolutely in good faith. You know what the problem is always in Northern Ireland? People have got their different constituencies they've got to try and bring with them. Now I think what they've done is actually a monumental job of bringing people with them. But there's this outstanding issue, after all the stops and starts of the last few years the unionist community, for reasons that I understand, are absolutely determined to have a visible, transparent decommissioning. That's difficult for the republican side. We've got to try and find a way through that. But in finding a way through let's not ignore what actually has now been agreed which is the end of paramilitary activity, and power sharing between the DUP and Sinn Fein if we can overcome this last obstacle.

Bertie Ahern:

I don't particularly want to add anything to that, but just to say it's not a question. There's no bad faith as far as I'm concerned in this, and the important aspect we don't set the thresholds for what would be ensuring maximum public confidence, but we do listen to what the parties say, and all of the time we try to get fair compromises. In the legislation that we passed n both the Houses of Oireachtas in Dublin and they were passed in Westminster it would say that this is a matter for the International Independent Commission on Decommissioning, but if public confidence is about or the unionist community is not satisfied by that then we have to take on board the initiative, and the initiative was that photographs were necessary for public confidence, and it is in that context that both Governments agreed to do it in March.

Question:

(unclear) neither words or actions in this process just come out of the ether. Can we assume therefore that the issue of photography was agreed in this process and what we're now looking for a compromise on, or what you propose to compromise is their publication? Were republicans negotiating round photography and taking photographs?

Tony Blair:

No, it was around the whole issue of whether there should be photographs or not. There are three aspects of this in decommissioning, and what people want to know in Northern Ireland is that it is over, and there's not going to be anymore weapons. Now, decommissioning is an important part, giving people the confidence that happens, but I think we had agreement on is that the decommissioning had to happen in a way satisfactory to the decommissioning commission. Secondly, that there should be independent observers, but not on the issue of whether there should be photographs, not simply the issue of publication, but the issue of whether there should be.

Question:

(unclear) how late was that introduced into it?

Tony Blair:

Well, this is a discussion that's been going on all the time. It's just that at some point in time what we've got to do, and this is why we've decided to do this today, we did say we would do this, some time we've got to call it. I think you probably expected this press conference to be happening a couple of weeks ago, and then last week, and now it's this week. Now we could have put if off another week, but I think we decided for sensible reasons to say, no it's actually right at this point that we call it and say, well that's what we think is the way through this, and as the Taoiseach said a moment or two ago, it's not for me in a sense to simply say what I think is the issue on the decommissioning thing. I mean I've already made it clear decommissioning has got to happen, of course it has, it's part of the Agreement. But the point is what is necessary to build confidence on the unionist side? Now we thought we could have found a way through that, we did do a very substantial amount, but there's an outstanding issue.

Question:

Photographs on the agenda for a long time?

Tony Blair:

Exactly, yes.

Question:

Prime Minister, one of the sort of common mantras in this process for quite some time has been nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. It's understandable, given that you're trying to keep these proposals alive, that you wouldn't want to criticise anybody of bad faith. But if you introduced that this notion, that this particular bit of photographic evidence is the non-agreed bit, aren't you running the risk that other people will start resigning from their commitments left, right and centre? The DUP could say, well hang on, you know, our commitment is to share power within the context of all of this? And Taoiseach, I mean you say that you want to keep at this, and try to achieve something before Christmas, but isn't it the truth that a little while ago you were talking about if this opportunity is lost, it would be 2006, and aren't we looking at that prospect unfortunately?

Bertie Ahern:

Well from, you know, I think there's that danger if people walk away from it. But you know, if people, I don't like to make this simple or try to make a simple thing of a very complicated area, but if the proposals put forward by the Governments was accepted totally, I think they're (unclear) totally, but if the parties were to walk in the door and say, they accept photographs and they accept March as being the date, then there's a deal. I mean, you know, so I don't want to be simplistic, and you know decommissioning, it's just interesting listening to the questions, I've been here so many times before and (unclear), are you naïve to believe you'll get decommissioning, do you really think the Army Council will ever give up the guns, do you really think we'll get them dealing with John de Chastelain? Here we're today telling you that we can do that, there are some issues that need to be resolved, I think, because discussions stopped off, I think they could (unclear) be resolved. You're right, things will fall off the block if you leave it for a long time, and that will happen, you know there are other things happening in the world, there's other things happening in Northern Ireland, things happening everywhere which are on Government's lists, it's a busy agenda, and the parties will get on with other things. But here you have a package that covers decommissioning, demilitarisation, stability of the institutions, policing for the future, all of the things that we've endlessly been asked. They're now agreed, we're talking about just how you get public transparency, I'm not saying photos are an easy thing, and I know people flashing photos, somebody would say, well that's a nothing. I know it's not a photo, it is public confidence so that the people can see that, that's a big thing, I understand that, but that's the only issue. But none of the other issues are there anymore, they're resolved. If we leave it a long time, they'll become unresolved.

Question:

And do you personally think that the notion of independent cleric witnesses should have been sufficient for the two communities here, the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister?

Tony Blair:

Well I'll tell you exactly what I think about that. I think that it isn't sensible to talk about humiliation. I don't think it's sensible to over-react at all about humiliation and I think that if harsh words were going to put us off seeking an agreement in Northern Ireland, we'll never have an agreement in Northern Ireland. So I understand the very strong feelings caused by words that are spoken. But I still think we've just got at some point to be able to put that to one side and get on with it and I hope that people realise as well on the other side. I hope they realise on the unionist side because if you are actually going to have people as partners in Government, it's sensible actually to reach out the hand of partnership to them. So I think what I would say is that I regard anything that doesn't help us secure agreement as unhelpful but I think it's important people don't over-react to things that are said.

Bertie Ahern:

I think from my discussions with Dr Paisley that he does want to have a fair and honourable deal and I'm not going to get into the blame game on words that are said because I've spent the maximum part of my life since I've become Taoiseach, listening to people who have suffered from one quarter or another and I can understand where they all come from about things that have happened, so if we were to get into the blame game on these issues I can tell you we'd still be working on the multi-party agreement.

Tony Blair:

Excuse me. Restore a bit of order, that means the Taoiseach takes charge.

Question:

Taoiseach, Prime Minister, you've talked about a mound being in the way on the way as you approach the top of the summit. Mr Ahern the Taoiseach, has spoken about trying to get a deal in place by Christmas. What do you propose to do to get past that mound, by Christmas? What is your stragegy now?

Tony Blair:

The strategy is twofold. I mean obviously to work away with it and there's a meeting that Paul Murphy and Dermot Ahern are having in the next few days that will try and take this forward again so we've got to keep working at it. The second thing I think is and this is part of the reason for us coming here today is to let the people of Northern Ireland and indeed the people of the whole of the island of Ireland into negotiation and so this is it, this is what can happen, this is where we can be, this is how far people have come and build, I think some public and civic support for getting you the last bit of the way here. You know, our job in the end is to facilitate this, keeping to certain clear principles and that's what we're trying to do and I think that we've just got to keep at it and as I said to you, we've been walking up this slope for a long, long time but I think you can see from this today and you know we can see what the parties all say later but I think you can see from his document today we have been pretty near the peak and I don't think it will take much more to get there but it's something we won't give up on doing.

Question:

Question unclear?

Bertie Ahern:

Well maybe it's aspiration but let's be clear Tommie, you know because you've followed this for years how complicated each aspect is. And here we have a comprehensive deal, bar a few issues, bar a few issues, I'm not saying there's just one there, obviously General John De Chastelain would have to finalise his conversations with the IRA representative to get everything in place, to see all these things are done properly, that didn't happen because they didn't get to that stage. So I assume they would happen and would happen satisfactorily but that would have to be done. But we're not talking about much. I mean if people really stand back and that's as the Prime Minister said, we're here, the issue is the people going on. If we had have said before, decommissioning can be resolved, demilitarisation can be resolved, there's stability of the Institutions, a power sharing Executive within a few months, and it's almost the New Year, after the Christmas break and then we're into the spring time, it's a short enough period and people could see that. Look how everything moves forward, it's not a lot. I mean it's not a huge amount of work and I didn't mention earlier on the Review. The Review came out of the election, we've satisfactorily concluded the Review an enormous amount of work in the Review, endless time by officials and our Ministers and we've concluded the Review, satisfactorily. Everybody has signed up to the Review. As I understand Dr Paisley told the Prime Minister he accepts that work. Gerry Adams has written to me, I have it in writing, I understand that letter is to be released. I've no problem about that. So really I'm talking about just a few items. Now it does not take long if people really want it. Or do we leave all of this as has been said earlier on, to chip back and in six months time on the other side of the election, we'll be back starting all over again. It makes no sense to me, no sense.

Question:

Isn't the publication an admission of failure, and isn't it unlikely that you're going to make agreement even more difficult now with recriminations that have followed its publication, and I also wanted to ask the Taoiseach, what he thought the status was now of the agreements reached with the IRA, would seemed to be suggesting in the Dail yesterday that they might ago away?

Tony Blair:

In respect to the first part, I think what we tried to do is to show people how far we succeeded, but yes, I mean we're accepting we've still got this last bit of the way to go. But of all the issues that we detailed out at Lancaster House, I mean, I think if you told most people a few months ago that it was possible to get agreement on these things, they would be extremely surprised, now we've got this outstanding issue, just got to resolve it. Well, we'll wait and see, I mean as ever in Northern Ireland ... you'll never be sure what everyone else is going to say. Me and the Taoiseach gave our press conferences and we're fine about it, but you never know what everyone else is going to say when you ... it's always a surprise of some sort, pleasant or unpleasant when you read the press releases that follow. I think you will find actually, that although of course there will be some recriminating on those, I mean there always is going to be. I don't think that's the overwhelming mood, the overwhelming mood of the parties in this, is to get an agreement that allows the DUP and Sinn Fein to sit in Government together, and that's what they've been trying to do, and genuinely trying to do it. So I think people understand that whatever formal recrimination must happen, in the end I think. I think and believe you will find people back trying to find a way through this, I actually do think that. I hope I'm not disappointed, but I don't think I will be.

Bertie Ahern:

The issues are dealt with in the short timeframe, I don't think they'll drift away, if it goes on for a long time they always drift away.

Question:

Prime Minister, as far as you are concerned. Prime Minister, as far as you are concerned has the DUP agreed proposals which the Taoiseach characterise as and I'm quoting him, "proposals by which everyone can go forward on the basis of the Good Friday Agreement"?

Tony Blair:

We always made it clear that this had to be in line with the fundamentals of the Belfast Agreement, the Good Friday Agreement, had always made that clear. And yes, I think this does, I mean it changes to meet DUP demands, it changes and amends in certain ways the way it works, but not in a way discordant with the fundamentals, and the fundamentals are important, we've got to adhere to that.

Question:

But how do you reconcile that the DUP's devout position which is vehemently anti-Agreement, how do you personally reconcile those two things?

Tony Blair:

The DUP set out certain things, changes that they wanted to the Agreement. Now we have come to an agreed package of changes here. I mean, I don't know that it helps particularly how you characterise that and people will characterise it in different ways. But, I believe the important thing all the way through is to keep to the fundamentals of the Agreement, and I think we've done that really.

Bertie Ahern:

And in fairness to the DUP, part of the Good Friday Agreement that we both signed said there has to be review, so that is totally reasonable. We didn't put in there'd be review in 1998, for it not to be looked at again, and so they were quite within their rights having a review.

Question:

Prime Minister, sticking to your boulders and mountains, on photographic evidence, was there ever a point at which you felt you had rolled the boulder to the top of the hill, and it then slipped back a bit, or did you never, ever get there? And in publishing your proposals now, are you attempting to mobilise public pressure on the IRA and Sinn Fein to agree on the question of photographic evidence, and if not, what do you think is going to change the minds of the people whose minds have to be changed?

Tony Blair:

I don't think, it's probably not helpful to go into the details of it. I mean there were discussions about this issue going on over a period of time. In the end it's not proved possible to resolve that at least at the moment. It's not that I want public pressure so much, but I think we do actually owe it to people in Northern Ireland to explain to them what's been going on, and to put the documents out before them, and we did say we would do this incidentally, I mean we made it clear that we weren't, if we engaged in months and months more negotiation this time, we were going to call it ourselves, and that's what we've done. What I do hope comes through very, very much indeed is, strong public and civic support for the essentials of this, and some support to get us the last bit of the way, which is going to take some, it's going to take obviously some careful reflection, but I hope it's careful reflection done with people understanding the majority of people in Northern Ireland, and huge majority of people in Northern Ireland who want this to work. And want it to work, though on the basis now that is clear, that there is power-sharing in return for a complete and delivered commitment to peaceful means.

Question:

I just wanted to clarify just what you were saying about the public, this is an appeal to the public that you are making to see these proposals and in effect to put pressure on the politicians, how should they do that in your view? Are you contemplating fresh elections, referenda or is it just an nebulous thought that the message will get through to the politicians eventually?

Tony Blair:

I would never describe any of my thoughts as nebulous. It is not that but it is an attempt to say to people that this is where it is, this is actually how far the political leadership in Northern Ireland has been prepared to come, now help us all to get that last bit of the way. And I think actually this is one set of circumstances in which a healthy and informed debate and my experience incidentally of Northern Ireland is that whatever criticism I may have of the media from time to time in other context actually you do get a pretty healthy and informed debate. So people can in a sense say to everyone, look come on there is only that bit to go, get there, go and get there and obviously we leave every option open for the future as to how we test public opinion again, but we are not saying that at this present time or entering into some commitment to do any particular form of it.

Question:

Unclear

Bertie Ahern:

These are enormously important because one of the 6 or so chapters that we had to deal with was the stability of the institutions that when we got them up and running and they always worked successfully when they were up and running, but then something would happen that would bring them down. And an area that the Prime Minister and I have worked for a long time, not just this year, but for a long time was to get an understanding on the stability of the institutions and obviously this year, 2004, that was in the context of working with the Democratic Unionist Party, Dr Paisley and his colleagues and I think their statement shows that in the context of a comprehensive agreement that that is something that they are committed to doing and that is very important I think for the nationalist republican population.

Question:

Prime Minister realistically you re not going to get a deal done by Christmas, the IRA aren't going to agree to this photograph and we are going to have to wait until after next general election in the UK for any agreement to happen in Northern Ireland?

Tony Blair:

There is a sort of question mark at the end of that is there?

Question:

There is.

Tony Blair:

Well wait and see, let's wait and see.

Question:

.....do you believe that publication of the photographs is a necessary part of verification of decommissioning or (unclear)?

Tony Blair:

What we believe is we have to do whatever is necessary to build confidence. It is not that we are, we are in a position of trying to facilitate this and recognising that there is a confidence issue because of all the turns and twists we have taken in this and all the times people thought we were getting an end to paramilitary violence and then people were unsure of it and the difficulties that have happened have made it that bit harder to establish that confidence and it is not so much of us expressing our own opinion about what we would do if we were those parties, it is more saying how do we facilitate the agreement and we called this particular issue in the way that we have described here, but we did it because we recognised there was an issue to do with confidence building on the unionist side. I think the summary of this is that there has been an immense amount of change in every single corner of Northern Ireland politics in the last few years and it has taken an immense amount of political courage and leadership to get this far. Now we see our role now as trying to facilitate that last bit of the way. But the one thing that is clear is that the unthinkable has become a potential reality, not yet a reality but certainly a potential reality which is namely the unionist community in all its aspects and the republican nationalist community sitting down together on an enduring basis with the complete end to paramilitary violence and the threat of paramilitary violence. So all the issues to do with the detail is about putting that in place in a way that builds confidence on both sides and that is what we tried to do. So there is no point in us frankly expressing our opinion if we were the parties, we are not, we are the two Governments and that is the role that we are trying to perform.

Bertie Ahern:

Just briefly to say, the Irish Government's position was that we didn't see ourselves setting down the thresholds for maximising public confidence but as in everything in this we listen to what the parties say and the issue of first of all decommissioning happen, then it was the question of having independent people and right that they would have to be able to express their views in the context of having seen decommissioning or seeing the arms dumps and then the issue of photographs and we tried to do it, it is not that we saw it necessary or not, but it was to try and get the public confidence issue and I accept totally it is not a photograph, it is a public confidence issue, we tried to achieve that because that is what would have brought it to a satisfactory conclusion. And then rather than trying to do it now we thought by doing it at the establishment of the Executive that was a good compromise so it would have been simultaneous with the new Executive. And quite frankly if you ask for my personal opinion I would have thought what was more important to people of Northern Ireland at that stage, it was that the Executive was back up and running and that we had moved on and we had seen the end of decommissioning several months earlier. But that still is an issue which has to be addressed.

Thank you.